well, since you mention that you were interested in some details about Black Swan I thought this couple be a good reading, the introduction is the best history of black swan available...
I remember Roy Spangler "Red Onion Rag" from the CDs that came with your great book THAT DEVILIN' TUNE. Before the internet I'm sure those compilations were the only way to hear so many of those tracks. Thanks for your endless investigations into jazz history!
What is this 'indefinitely suspended'? Mr Lowe is not being nasty. What's going on? My sense is that Horace Henderson swung much more than Fletcher, and I'm not being nasty either in saying so.
I think the term "trio" comes from march music. I remember it from playing in marching band in high school. Wikipedia writes: "...all marches have these common elements:
— Different sections, called strains.
— Several separate melodies.
— A middle section, dubbed the Trio, that features contrasting melodic material and is usually lighter in texture and more lyrical in style. After the Trio the main section is recapitulated.
My writing was unclear. I didn't mean to say Joplin invented the trio, but only that the trio that Jelly Roll and Henderson (and Hines) use is a reference to Joplin's trios. In my own daily life, the only time I see a trio is in Joplin lol
The HARVARD DICTIONARY OF MUSIC (which is ecumenical enough to have an entry "Trading," as in trading fours) has this: "(2) In dance movements from the 17th century onward, a contrasting second or middle section appearing between the prinicipal dance and its repetition... The term derives from the 17th-century practice of scoring the second of two alternating dances for three instruments, frequently two oboes and bassoon. See also alternativo." So, thanks again.
I didn't think it was unclear. I'm grateful that your reference to trio moved me to make the connection between the trios in my marching band parts, and the trios in Joplin and Morton. The bit of Wikipedia that I quoted helped. Similarly the once-mystifying use of "trio" in classical music scherzi (minuets as well?), now makes more sense as well. Thank you for the push!
I would love to read research about the connection between classic marches, ragtime, and early jazz. They’re just so close! Both in their overall construction, and historically. I’ve always assumed there’s some connection but I don’t want to say that without hearing someone smarter than me say it first.
Thanks for reading! FWIW in my view NO research needs to be done, the influence is totally obvious. However most marches were band music and therefore not that pianistic. Certain moments from the Chopin, Liszt, and Brahms repertoire are even more promo-ragtime than the march. In my recent post on "Fox Trot Piano" I include a couple of bars from the Butterfly Etude. https://iverson.substack.com/p/tt-490-foxtrot-piano
Gunther Schuller, in EARLY JAZZ: ITS ROOTS AND MUSICAL DEVELOPMENT, devotes a paragraph (pp. 33-34) to the relations between march and ragtime: "the evidence points overwhelmingly to the march as the formal progenitor of ragtime." His chapter on Morton includes intermittent observations on the debt that jazz owed to ragtime and its freedom from ragtime.
Haha. You've brought up Gunther's name enough the comments in the past months that I'll tip my hand and actually declare that I don't like his books on jazz. Of course he's right about a lot of things. but there's a tremendous amount that he gets totally wrong. Egotistically, I regard my own writing as an antidote to Schuller's jazz critique. (As you may know, I love many of his compositions, and also interviewed him at length.)
I prefer Morton's recording of King Porter Stomp for Alan Lomax at the Library of Congress, the second of two, which the reissue's editor, the late Morton expert James Dapogny, considered the superior. (I agree.) I'd guess that this is the closest to a live recording of Morton that we have, playing in front of Lomax, who percussed from time to time, and the woman taking down Morton's reminiscences. To my ears, Goodman's orchestra exaggerates the swung eighths; Morton also swings them, but less perceptibly.
I suppose I have less appreciation for big bands generally, although I don't tire of Ellington, and some of the old Kansas City orchestra recordings sound great to me, Basie at the head of the class. But for me, nothing tops Benny Moten's "The Blue Room" for evoking a wild night on the dance floor. No doubt there's a profound Henderson influence in the section playing but it's the rhythm with Walter Page's 4/4 bass that really kicks it up.
I must add: I've greatly enjoyed some of the bebop and after big bands. I saw the Vinny Golia big band perform once and it was outstanding, as are some of the Jazz Composers Orchestra Association recordings, Liberation Music Orchestra etc. I don't generally think of them when we're talking big bands.
I feel like Earl Hines is due for a reappraisal in contemporary terms
I know what you mean, especially his is late style is just so fabulous
Thinking about arranging some of this for brass quintet, particularly the Matthews.
go for it!
just made available for free: https://mainspringpress.org/2025/03/20/new-free-download-black-swan-records-a-history-and-discography-allan-sutton-mainspring-press/
Thanks, this topic is something I generally know nothing about
well, since you mention that you were interested in some details about Black Swan I thought this couple be a good reading, the introduction is the best history of black swan available...
I remember Roy Spangler "Red Onion Rag" from the CDs that came with your great book THAT DEVILIN' TUNE. Before the internet I'm sure those compilations were the only way to hear so many of those tracks. Thanks for your endless investigations into jazz history!
What is this 'indefinitely suspended'? Mr Lowe is not being nasty. What's going on? My sense is that Horace Henderson swung much more than Fletcher, and I'm not being nasty either in saying so.
On the topic of Black Swan, I found this podcast fascinating https://radiolab.org/podcast/vanishing-harry-pace-episode-1
I think the term "trio" comes from march music. I remember it from playing in marching band in high school. Wikipedia writes: "...all marches have these common elements:
— Different sections, called strains.
— Several separate melodies.
— A middle section, dubbed the Trio, that features contrasting melodic material and is usually lighter in texture and more lyrical in style. After the Trio the main section is recapitulated.
Strains and trios: also in Joplin and Morton.
My writing was unclear. I didn't mean to say Joplin invented the trio, but only that the trio that Jelly Roll and Henderson (and Hines) use is a reference to Joplin's trios. In my own daily life, the only time I see a trio is in Joplin lol
The HARVARD DICTIONARY OF MUSIC (which is ecumenical enough to have an entry "Trading," as in trading fours) has this: "(2) In dance movements from the 17th century onward, a contrasting second or middle section appearing between the prinicipal dance and its repetition... The term derives from the 17th-century practice of scoring the second of two alternating dances for three instruments, frequently two oboes and bassoon. See also alternativo." So, thanks again.
I didn't think it was unclear. I'm grateful that your reference to trio moved me to make the connection between the trios in my marching band parts, and the trios in Joplin and Morton. The bit of Wikipedia that I quoted helped. Similarly the once-mystifying use of "trio" in classical music scherzi (minuets as well?), now makes more sense as well. Thank you for the push!
I would love to read research about the connection between classic marches, ragtime, and early jazz. They’re just so close! Both in their overall construction, and historically. I’ve always assumed there’s some connection but I don’t want to say that without hearing someone smarter than me say it first.
Thanks for reading! FWIW in my view NO research needs to be done, the influence is totally obvious. However most marches were band music and therefore not that pianistic. Certain moments from the Chopin, Liszt, and Brahms repertoire are even more promo-ragtime than the march. In my recent post on "Fox Trot Piano" I include a couple of bars from the Butterfly Etude. https://iverson.substack.com/p/tt-490-foxtrot-piano
Gunther Schuller, in EARLY JAZZ: ITS ROOTS AND MUSICAL DEVELOPMENT, devotes a paragraph (pp. 33-34) to the relations between march and ragtime: "the evidence points overwhelmingly to the march as the formal progenitor of ragtime." His chapter on Morton includes intermittent observations on the debt that jazz owed to ragtime and its freedom from ragtime.
Haha. You've brought up Gunther's name enough the comments in the past months that I'll tip my hand and actually declare that I don't like his books on jazz. Of course he's right about a lot of things. but there's a tremendous amount that he gets totally wrong. Egotistically, I regard my own writing as an antidote to Schuller's jazz critique. (As you may know, I love many of his compositions, and also interviewed him at length.)
I prefer Morton's recording of King Porter Stomp for Alan Lomax at the Library of Congress, the second of two, which the reissue's editor, the late Morton expert James Dapogny, considered the superior. (I agree.) I'd guess that this is the closest to a live recording of Morton that we have, playing in front of Lomax, who percussed from time to time, and the woman taking down Morton's reminiscences. To my ears, Goodman's orchestra exaggerates the swung eighths; Morton also swings them, but less perceptibly.
I suppose I have less appreciation for big bands generally, although I don't tire of Ellington, and some of the old Kansas City orchestra recordings sound great to me, Basie at the head of the class. But for me, nothing tops Benny Moten's "The Blue Room" for evoking a wild night on the dance floor. No doubt there's a profound Henderson influence in the section playing but it's the rhythm with Walter Page's 4/4 bass that really kicks it up.
I must add: I've greatly enjoyed some of the bebop and after big bands. I saw the Vinny Golia big band perform once and it was outstanding, as are some of the Jazz Composers Orchestra Association recordings, Liberation Music Orchestra etc. I don't generally think of them when we're talking big bands.