True story: David and his wife, Lida, lived in the first house my parents had built and where I lived for the first two months of my life in Bloomington, Ind., where I grew up. Lida still lives there.
He was a solid player from the J.J. lineage who could deal with more forward thinking music. Interesting to ponder the alternate universe where he continued to play trombone. He might have been the "Interstellar Hard Bop" trombone player which never really existed.
He published these wild trombone method books - I've only seen a few, but they had all kinds of extended technique, way beyond the stuff he was playing with George Russell, into the George Lewis/Ray Anderson/Luciano Berio sound world.
nice call about the alternate universe, and that's interesting about the trombone books too, sounds like ADVANCED IMPROVISATION, where the concepts are truly esoteric
Curious... is Grachan Moncur NOT the "Interstellar Hard Bop" trombonist that... existed? I love the two blue note records and there's a nice one w Jackie McLean.
Discussed this with Mark Stryker back here, sorry about the link to the bad site. But I said "I maintain that one of the key forces shaping jazz trombone history is that of the major players who had the formidable technique necessary to keep up with the innovations of the 60s (JJ, Curtis, Slide, Rosolino) none of them were aesthetically inclined towards that music. not to say that they weren’t great artists…they just weren’t gonna go to that musical space" https://x.com/Mark_Stryker/status/1749499159931932983
I did my undergrad at IU (93-96) so I got a ton of time w DB. He was the sort of teacher who you realize is even better than you thought as the years go by. Played several gigs w him, had private lessons too. Obv played in his big band also. We played many of his arrangements and compositions, and in the small group we did the “out” version of Lady Bird.
He had many incredible, some hilarious, stories about the old days, and he actually taught jazz history and African American music history (actually 2 distinct classes albeit w heavy overlap) in large classic college lecture style to 100-120 sized rooms.
In addition to the total bebop inundation he talked a ton about all sorts of other eras - voluminously about all the pre-bop stuff, and also throughly about the AACM, Julius Hemphill, Ornette, Cecil, and that stuff. He knew Hemphill and taught him. This was to us jazz majors in our small classes as well as in the aforementioned history lectures.
Oh, also I took an Ellington class from him. A whole semester. Astounding! Encyclopedic Ellington knowledge, really helped that light bulb go on for me. I wrote my paper on Reminiscing in Tempo.
He was also really really funny. And just a brilliant and kind guy. And I’ve been to parties at that house, Mark.
I returned to Bloomington in 2014 w Dave Douglas’s quintet to play at the local club Bear’s Place, and he was around 80 by then and had slowed down considerably , but he came and stayed *for both sets*. I don’t remember him having come to Bear’s much, or at all, in the time I went there. Of course that was 30 years ago now(!)
Re: Baker being more fundamentally a "classical cat": I studied with him (at a camp) in the 90s and he told the students that for him, the most beautiful, sublime music in history was Mozart.
Thanks for this, and for the Mark Stryker article from which two passages especially stand out:
Re: Baker's Clarinet Concerto
Alan Balter "asked me to leave room for improvisation. But he didn't have the courage to try to improvise, and I knew he wouldn't. Everybody who plays it always says they're going to improvise and, except for Eddie Daniels, nobody ever does."
Re: Auditioning for the Indianapolis Symphony in the 1950's:
"I can never forget the guy saying to me, 'You're the best person we've heard so far, but you understand that you're not going to get the job.'"
Thank you! Was just digging into the Hank Jones/Red Mitchell version with a student.
And I only got to meet Dr. Baker once, though I feel like I got a bunch of secondary DB lessons through my years of studying with Ted Dunbar, who spoke about him often and like a brother.
Great stuff. As usual, slightly above my level of amateur non-jazz musician literacy. But you make me feel as though I understand, which is a very writerly trick! This week's head-scratcher: "rigorous embrace of avoid tones." I look forward to a show where the after-concert audience chatter includes, "Man, did you hear the way she landed on those avoid tones!"
I experienced Baker's work in 2001, when I recorded the Chicago Jazz Orchestra play charts that he brought and conducted that Sy Oliver had written for the Lunceford and Dorsey bands.
BTW -- there was another important David Baker in the jazz world -- he was a fine recording engineer in NYC who Billy Hart told me all the guys liked. I had a nice dinner with that David Baker when he was in Chicago for a gig.
Great share, Inc the old interview. I will get some of David Baker works into my listening. Ethan Iverson , At this point in time, what's your take on "the Bebop scale" ?
Barry Harris taught the bebop scale (although I don't think he called it that) so that's good enough for me. It's a valuable tool. However it is also true that Coltrane and Wayne Shorter play it far more than the true boppers like Bird, Bud, and Sonny Rollins ever did.
Such a fascinating post, Ethan! I had never heard of Mr. Baker; it was a delight to read of his skill in combining jazz and classical, and his facility in composing , performing, and teaching in both genres. Reading the newspaper clipping where he spoke of his enthusiasm of composers as diverse as Bartok, Mozart, Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich, and Brahms -- well, that just made my day! You then throw in Bird, Monk, Dolphy, and even a guy named Ethan Iverson, and pretty soon you realize all over again how blessed we are to have music and musicians to bring joy to our lives.
David Baker wrote some really good, insightful liner notes to the 1975 Blue Note reissue of Gil Evans big band recordings. He also showed me in 1978 a really hip way of re-harmonising standards. Sort of a Brian Eno method . . .
Thanks for sharing this great discussion. Close listening is the foundation of auditory memory, IMHO. I learned more than a few classic pieces by way of dictation.
True story: David and his wife, Lida, lived in the first house my parents had built and where I lived for the first two months of my life in Bloomington, Ind., where I grew up. Lida still lives there.
What
He was a solid player from the J.J. lineage who could deal with more forward thinking music. Interesting to ponder the alternate universe where he continued to play trombone. He might have been the "Interstellar Hard Bop" trombone player which never really existed.
He published these wild trombone method books - I've only seen a few, but they had all kinds of extended technique, way beyond the stuff he was playing with George Russell, into the George Lewis/Ray Anderson/Luciano Berio sound world.
nice call about the alternate universe, and that's interesting about the trombone books too, sounds like ADVANCED IMPROVISATION, where the concepts are truly esoteric
Also why did this publisher create an AI portrait of him?!? https://qpress.ca/product/the-complete-david-baker-for-trombone
Curious... is Grachan Moncur NOT the "Interstellar Hard Bop" trombonist that... existed? I love the two blue note records and there's a nice one w Jackie McLean.
Love those records too. In my view he was a minimalist and IHB is maximalist a la Joe Henderson at Slugs.
Discussed this with Mark Stryker back here, sorry about the link to the bad site. But I said "I maintain that one of the key forces shaping jazz trombone history is that of the major players who had the formidable technique necessary to keep up with the innovations of the 60s (JJ, Curtis, Slide, Rosolino) none of them were aesthetically inclined towards that music. not to say that they weren’t great artists…they just weren’t gonna go to that musical space" https://x.com/Mark_Stryker/status/1749499159931932983
"(Rudd and Monchur) were more interested in the expressive type of new jazz and less into the world of McCoy, Wayne, Woody Shaw, Coltrane, etc"
I did my undergrad at IU (93-96) so I got a ton of time w DB. He was the sort of teacher who you realize is even better than you thought as the years go by. Played several gigs w him, had private lessons too. Obv played in his big band also. We played many of his arrangements and compositions, and in the small group we did the “out” version of Lady Bird.
He had many incredible, some hilarious, stories about the old days, and he actually taught jazz history and African American music history (actually 2 distinct classes albeit w heavy overlap) in large classic college lecture style to 100-120 sized rooms.
In addition to the total bebop inundation he talked a ton about all sorts of other eras - voluminously about all the pre-bop stuff, and also throughly about the AACM, Julius Hemphill, Ornette, Cecil, and that stuff. He knew Hemphill and taught him. This was to us jazz majors in our small classes as well as in the aforementioned history lectures.
Oh, also I took an Ellington class from him. A whole semester. Astounding! Encyclopedic Ellington knowledge, really helped that light bulb go on for me. I wrote my paper on Reminiscing in Tempo.
He was also really really funny. And just a brilliant and kind guy. And I’ve been to parties at that house, Mark.
I returned to Bloomington in 2014 w Dave Douglas’s quintet to play at the local club Bear’s Place, and he was around 80 by then and had slowed down considerably , but he came and stayed *for both sets*. I don’t remember him having come to Bear’s much, or at all, in the time I went there. Of course that was 30 years ago now(!)
amazing comment, thanks Matt!
Thanks Ethan.
Also I meant to say “100-120 students” above. Was writing fast, ha.
Re: Baker being more fundamentally a "classical cat": I studied with him (at a camp) in the 90s and he told the students that for him, the most beautiful, sublime music in history was Mozart.
right on. Hey, Nick, next time we hit, let's play "Wee!"
Great post, and man, as a Detroiter I sure miss weekly articles from Mark Stryker!
Thanks, John.
Thanks for this, and for the Mark Stryker article from which two passages especially stand out:
Re: Baker's Clarinet Concerto
Alan Balter "asked me to leave room for improvisation. But he didn't have the courage to try to improvise, and I knew he wouldn't. Everybody who plays it always says they're going to improvise and, except for Eddie Daniels, nobody ever does."
Re: Auditioning for the Indianapolis Symphony in the 1950's:
"I can never forget the guy saying to me, 'You're the best person we've heard so far, but you understand that you're not going to get the job.'"
yes, a very valuable article!
Thank you! Was just digging into the Hank Jones/Red Mitchell version with a student.
And I only got to meet Dr. Baker once, though I feel like I got a bunch of secondary DB lessons through my years of studying with Ted Dunbar, who spoke about him often and like a brother.
Glad you called out the Scofield version. The whole ‘En Route’ album is a favorite!
Great gig in Copenhagen a few weeks back, thanks!
thanks so much~
Great stuff. As usual, slightly above my level of amateur non-jazz musician literacy. But you make me feel as though I understand, which is a very writerly trick! This week's head-scratcher: "rigorous embrace of avoid tones." I look forward to a show where the after-concert audience chatter includes, "Man, did you hear the way she landed on those avoid tones!"
😂
I experienced Baker's work in 2001, when I recorded the Chicago Jazz Orchestra play charts that he brought and conducted that Sy Oliver had written for the Lunceford and Dorsey bands.
BTW -- there was another important David Baker in the jazz world -- he was a fine recording engineer in NYC who Billy Hart told me all the guys liked. I had a nice dinner with that David Baker when he was in Chicago for a gig.
David Baker the engineer recorded my first album, SCHOOL WORK, with Dewey Redman
Great share, Inc the old interview. I will get some of David Baker works into my listening. Ethan Iverson , At this point in time, what's your take on "the Bebop scale" ?
Barry Harris taught the bebop scale (although I don't think he called it that) so that's good enough for me. It's a valuable tool. However it is also true that Coltrane and Wayne Shorter play it far more than the true boppers like Bird, Bud, and Sonny Rollins ever did.
Such a fascinating post, Ethan! I had never heard of Mr. Baker; it was a delight to read of his skill in combining jazz and classical, and his facility in composing , performing, and teaching in both genres. Reading the newspaper clipping where he spoke of his enthusiasm of composers as diverse as Bartok, Mozart, Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich, and Brahms -- well, that just made my day! You then throw in Bird, Monk, Dolphy, and even a guy named Ethan Iverson, and pretty soon you realize all over again how blessed we are to have music and musicians to bring joy to our lives.
aw thanks Karl!
David Baker wrote some really good, insightful liner notes to the 1975 Blue Note reissue of Gil Evans big band recordings. He also showed me in 1978 a really hip way of re-harmonising standards. Sort of a Brian Eno method . . .
I'll look for those notes, that sounds interesting
Thanks for sharing this great discussion. Close listening is the foundation of auditory memory, IMHO. I learned more than a few classic pieces by way of dictation.
I believe Denzil Best wrote Dee's Dee's dance . First time I heard that was on the BIRD box that came out in the late eighties on Mosaic. Fantastic.
I only got to see David Baker play once back when I lived in Bloomington. Wish I had taken advantage of more opportunities!