Pepper Adams overlooked as usual. He didn’t even get a mention in the omissions list while he belongs in two categories-Hard Bop and Working for a Living.
Uh oh. The old “ one baritone player at a time”rule rears its ugly head once again. If any list contained 97 tenor players nobody would say word. Been dealing with this shit for 60+ years. Some things never change (we had a baritone player here last year).
yeah it's not my favorite solo instrument, even in an avant-garde concept. However it is essential in a big band, of course.
Offhand the records I really dig with the bari in extended solo passages are the Mulligan/Baker or Mulligan/Desmond with no piano. The lines speak really well with no chordal instrument in that basic framework
Not just in a big band. Try to imagine “Blues and the Abstract Truth “ without the baritone. Creed Taylor was pissed at Oliver for including it and refused to put George Barrow’s name on the cover but Oliver insisted it on it for obvious reasons.
A hard exercise for sure. So many substantial musicians who deserve recognition. I agree with everyone that was mentioned but to add someone who hasn’t been named I would say John Carter !
What about the whole guitarist category? Grant Green, Kenny Burrell, Pat Martino, Jim Hall, John McLaughlin, Barney Kessel, Johnny Smith? Perhaps not innovative enough? I think Grant Green's career spanned several historical periods and certainly was a pioneer of the jazz/funk genre. If Donaldson is up there, I don't think there's a good argument against Green. Where would Bitches Brew have been without McLaughlin? The Mahavishu Orchestra? Perhaps the list isn't meant to include jazz-fusion...
Well, I love the guitarists too, but none of the people on your list are my personal go to really. I’m snubbing them just out of casualness, not out of anything deeper. I think this is a pretty common piano player problem!
A drummer who is ALWAYS left out of such lists as these is Tiny Kahn. His small group playing in the early-mid '50's was top down, not bottom up. He danced. He didn't plod. He was also an arranger for Elliot Lawrence. Tiny died at 30. Short, brilliant lives are often easily and unforgivably forgotten.
Hello Mr. Soph! Peter Erskine was just telling me about Tiny Kahn, and I listened to that great Getz/Raney music in Boston. Apparently Getz mentioned Kahn a lot, and in that capacity he gets a namecheck in Billy Hart's forthcoming memoir
Ha! Well happy to should it out from the rooftops. Whiteman's band included a gaggle of bad MFs - starting with arrangers Bill Challis and Ferde Grofe, and adding star instrumentalists Bix Beiderbecke, Frankie Trumbauer, Joe Venuti, Eddie Lang, and Adrian Rollini. And of course, Andrew Hill made a ton of now-classic recordings and had a deeply original voice that influenced countless younger players.
I haven't spent a ton of time with his music, but my hunch is Whiteman would get a more evenhanded appraisal if his name had been Paul Smith. Being named Whiteman and labeled the "King of Jazz" seems to have turned him posthumously into a symbol of racial inequities in the music business. (I remember him getting a shout-out in Gang Star's "Jazz Thing" rap from the Mo Better Blues soudtrack, and not in a good way.)
Yeah, there was a swipe at Whiteman at the end the Ma Rainey's Black Bottom movie too. It's just ignorance, and his name and persona an easy allegory for racism in jazz. The band itself was killer.
I'm amazed Bill Evans isn't mentioned here, and if you're reluctant to include guitarists, there are two foundational ones that simply cannot be ignored, Charlie Christian and Django
The Blindfold Test is my favorite part of DownBeat too—always the first thing I flip to. There’s something timeless and revealing about hearing masters react in real time, without the filter of names or reputations. Love that you referenced those old-school, unfiltered takes—Ray Bryant, Mulligan, even Kenton getting salty. Total gold. Appreciate you keeping this tradition alive and bringing your own ear to it. More, please.
I can't think who Carney might have inspired to take up the big horn, if anyone. Dolphy surely brought many to it. I think of David Murray, another master, certainly not a Dolphy follower but surely influenced in the choice of the instrument.
I see your point, Howard. But the pianists you mentioned as being influenced by Taylor, other than Pullen, are hardly significant players in the mainstream tradition. Neither is Matthew Shipp, another Taylor acolyte.
Pepper Adams overlooked as usual. He didn’t even get a mention in the omissions list while he belongs in two categories-Hard Bop and Working for a Living.
nice point but for a list like this I'm not sure I wouldn't put Mulligan in there first. Both great of course
Uh oh. The old “ one baritone player at a time”rule rears its ugly head once again. If any list contained 97 tenor players nobody would say word. Been dealing with this shit for 60+ years. Some things never change (we had a baritone player here last year).
yeah it's not my favorite solo instrument, even in an avant-garde concept. However it is essential in a big band, of course.
Offhand the records I really dig with the bari in extended solo passages are the Mulligan/Baker or Mulligan/Desmond with no piano. The lines speak really well with no chordal instrument in that basic framework
Not just in a big band. Try to imagine “Blues and the Abstract Truth “ without the baritone. Creed Taylor was pissed at Oliver for including it and refused to put George Barrow’s name on the cover but Oliver insisted it on it for obvious reasons.
Right on. Nelson made sure to comment in Barrow’s contribution in the liners also
As a composer, arranger, band leader, yes. But as a player, Pepper has influenced a lot more players than Jeru, and has written some nice tunes.
Only concerning baritone players does this become an either/or issue 😡
Eddie Durham , the quiet man.
this is a good one
A hard exercise for sure. So many substantial musicians who deserve recognition. I agree with everyone that was mentioned but to add someone who hasn’t been named I would say John Carter !
How's about Danny Richmond? He always impressed me with Mingus.
All good choices, and I'm especially pleased with Tadd
You could build a whole hall of fame just from the names in the omissions list
What about the whole guitarist category? Grant Green, Kenny Burrell, Pat Martino, Jim Hall, John McLaughlin, Barney Kessel, Johnny Smith? Perhaps not innovative enough? I think Grant Green's career spanned several historical periods and certainly was a pioneer of the jazz/funk genre. If Donaldson is up there, I don't think there's a good argument against Green. Where would Bitches Brew have been without McLaughlin? The Mahavishu Orchestra? Perhaps the list isn't meant to include jazz-fusion...
Well, I love the guitarists too, but none of the people on your list are my personal go to really. I’m snubbing them just out of casualness, not out of anything deeper. I think this is a pretty common piano player problem!
“Stuck” in the rhythm section, LOL!
Hard to argue with your selections and thanks for inviting us all to take part yesterday - was tough but fun to offer up my ballot.
Right on!
A drummer who is ALWAYS left out of such lists as these is Tiny Kahn. His small group playing in the early-mid '50's was top down, not bottom up. He danced. He didn't plod. He was also an arranger for Elliot Lawrence. Tiny died at 30. Short, brilliant lives are often easily and unforgivably forgotten.
Hello Mr. Soph! Peter Erskine was just telling me about Tiny Kahn, and I listened to that great Getz/Raney music in Boston. Apparently Getz mentioned Kahn a lot, and in that capacity he gets a namecheck in Billy Hart's forthcoming memoir
Near the top of this list, I would add Paul Whiteman and Andrew Hill.
This may be the first time in history those two people have been mentioned in the same sentence
Ha! Well happy to should it out from the rooftops. Whiteman's band included a gaggle of bad MFs - starting with arrangers Bill Challis and Ferde Grofe, and adding star instrumentalists Bix Beiderbecke, Frankie Trumbauer, Joe Venuti, Eddie Lang, and Adrian Rollini. And of course, Andrew Hill made a ton of now-classic recordings and had a deeply original voice that influenced countless younger players.
I haven't spent a ton of time with his music, but my hunch is Whiteman would get a more evenhanded appraisal if his name had been Paul Smith. Being named Whiteman and labeled the "King of Jazz" seems to have turned him posthumously into a symbol of racial inequities in the music business. (I remember him getting a shout-out in Gang Star's "Jazz Thing" rap from the Mo Better Blues soudtrack, and not in a good way.)
Yeah, there was a swipe at Whiteman at the end the Ma Rainey's Black Bottom movie too. It's just ignorance, and his name and persona an easy allegory for racism in jazz. The band itself was killer.
I'm amazed Bill Evans isn't mentioned here, and if you're reluctant to include guitarists, there are two foundational ones that simply cannot be ignored, Charlie Christian and Django
All three are already in the Hall of Fame. https://open.substack.com/pub/iverson/p/tt-503-who-deserves-this-honor?r=4i89&utm_medium=ios
The Blindfold Test is my favorite part of DownBeat too—always the first thing I flip to. There’s something timeless and revealing about hearing masters react in real time, without the filter of names or reputations. Love that you referenced those old-school, unfiltered takes—Ray Bryant, Mulligan, even Kenton getting salty. Total gold. Appreciate you keeping this tradition alive and bringing your own ear to it. More, please.
Do you have anything in your archives about Babs Gonzales?
No, but of course he was important
Yes. Portrayed as a jester, even a buffoon. His memoir, I Paid My Dues, makes clear he was dead serious.
Harry Carney played bass clarinet on some Ellington recordings. You can catch this at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkwjl0BYeZY and https://jazzonthetube.com/video/sophisticated-lady-1952/. Not to take anything from Eric Dolphy who brought magic to everything he did (including, e.g., "It's Magic" on bass clarinet).
I can't think who Carney might have inspired to take up the big horn, if anyone. Dolphy surely brought many to it. I think of David Murray, another master, certainly not a Dolphy follower but surely influenced in the choice of the instrument.
Maybe there should be an international list with Reinhardt, Grappelli, Jobim (jazz?), Solal…
I see your point, Howard. But the pianists you mentioned as being influenced by Taylor, other than Pullen, are hardly significant players in the mainstream tradition. Neither is Matthew Shipp, another Taylor acolyte.