Bravo Ethan and three cheers for Shuja! Elevate the conversation, move the needle, and be the change. Congratulations and thanks for sharing the behind-the-scenes on an article about music that’s as impressive as it is important.
I came here to comment almost the same thing. I would go with "Late Bop." Implies the end of a longer bebop tradition (including hard bop), but a little punchier. Keeps the two syllables of bebop, hard bop, and post-bop.
First off, Shuja should never have to buy his own coffee/beer/whatever in the presence of a jazz fan again. Bravo! What a gift to have such a thoughtful and informed editor.
Secondly, thanks for such a remarkable behind-the-scenes view, Ethan.
How about 'Strata-Sphere'? If Interstellar was the rocket launch, the landing must have been close to Strata-East. Everything around it could be considered part of its sphere of influence -- hence the Strata-Sphere. Plus it's spacey-sounding which seems important for some reason...
I don't know which I like better: the Nation article or the piece ABOUT the Nation article. Either way, taken together, they make an extraordinary and important narrative of a slice of jazz history. I could argue about stuff that's left out or unaccounted for: the whole post-Chicago, post-AACM scene. I do remember after the advent of Wynton Marsalis being gobsmacked by how he and the Young Lions cleared everything else off the table. In the '80s and up through the early '90s, David Murray was the Man. He was the future. Especially in his octet work with Butch Morris. he seemed to be showing a new way forward. And the Italian Black Saint label was the '80s equivalent of Blue Note in the '50s-'early '60s -- it was people like Murray and his cohort in the World Saxophone Quartet, Oliver Lake, Julius Hemphill, Hamiet Bluiett, who were the pace setters The WSQ in particular was popular. People like Arthur Blythe got a deal with Columbia. And Arista was doing cool stuff as well -- Henry Threadgill and Air, Anthony Braxton, Steve Lacy. One veteran musician from the time said about Wynton: "This is the first time I've heard the music go backward." But when I think of exciting shows I've seen recently, Immanuel Wlkins, Joel Ross, and Marquis Hill seem like the closest analogues to the Slugs' gang, even if the music is significantly different. And then there's Kris Davis and her whole Pyroclastic scene. And the Bad Plus, which seemed (and still seems) sui generis. All of which is to say: You couldn't cover EVERYTHING! That would take a jazz version of "The Golden Bough" or Mr. Causabin's "Key to All Mythologies." But, you know, in your spare time!
Since I have been privately calling this music “postbop” for a long time (it carries to me all the connotation of “we took off from 1961-65 Miles and Coltrane, kept swinging and went further out harmonically”- just as, say, post modernism is well seen as an extension and intensification from the trajectory of modernism: and I don’t think it’s too broad as long as you come up with another new name for further trends in non free/fusion jazz by the mid 70s) but found your strongest argument against it yesterday to be “musicians don’t use it,” I had to laugh when you imagined telling Ron Carter a genre name he…definitely does not use.
Having previously been asked by editors to do exactly what Shuja asked of you - with less reservation about consequences or hands-on back-and-forth regarding options and meaning - I really enjoyed reading this as a process post. Kudos to a good editor!
Also, I really like Late Jazz. Warning: I may steal this (and attribute, of course).
Thank you for this invaluable insight into The Process, Ethan. And you’re right: most writers would kill for an editor as perceptive and engaged as Shuja Haider.
So many musicians throughout jazz history have avoided labels for the music that they play. Ellington said that each person is their own unique entity, or category if you wish.
Perhaps you've already settled this, but subjectively speaking I am not attracted to labeling styles!
As if The Nation article wasn’t enough of a gold mine, now we get this gem of a backstory. What a gift!
As an alternate name, I humbly propose Impressionist Bop. You still get the Coltrane allusion, and a song featuring Tyner to boot, an appropriate nod to bebop, but also a reference to the painting genre that took familiar subjects and presented them in a brand new way, which is how I’ve often thought of this era of jazz. The way Hancock and Shorter played/presented their musical ideas in the mid-60s has always seemed to me (a non-musician) to be more impressionistic than structural. I’d argue that Henderson’s version of Night & Day, the last track on Inner Urge, is a great example of not simply a jazz version of a standard, but presenting a familiar song in a brand new way. Finally, unlike “Late Jazz,” there’s no suggestion of an “end”, which is why I too lean against that term.
I like all the thought and reasoning that went into this.
But Interstellar Hard Bop has way too many syllables! Interstellar Swing would be better, Cosmic Swing even better, maybe. Interstellar Hard Bop reminds me of "technical death metal" - precise to the cognoscenti but to outsiders it's like "what?".
If it can't be post-bop, I'll call it "60's Shit". Jazzers know what that means. Also, nobody plays these tunes now, right? They talk about it but few play it. I was at the Rex once and overheard some guys talking about a chord change in a 60s Shit Wayne tune. I sidled up and asked if they played that sort of stuff, and he said "no we just play standards".
One thing that was coming to mind while I was listening to "Forces" (as well as others from this period like Charles Tolliver's newly issued "Live at the Captain's Cabin" from '73 or Freddie Hubbard's "The Hub of Hubbard" or any live Woody Shaw) is the unrelenting *energy* of it—it's loose in the best way (bordering on sloppy—sometimes the form disappears for a while as you pointed out!). I know "Energy Music" is used to refer to Archie Shepp and others on the free side of things, but maybe this is "Energy Bop"? "Black Power Energy Bop"? In the notes to "Captain's Cabin" Tolliver says "It was a wild period and we played wild."
Bravo Ethan and three cheers for Shuja! Elevate the conversation, move the needle, and be the change. Congratulations and thanks for sharing the behind-the-scenes on an article about music that’s as impressive as it is important.
Late Hard Bop
Nice
I came here to comment almost the same thing. I would go with "Late Bop." Implies the end of a longer bebop tradition (including hard bop), but a little punchier. Keeps the two syllables of bebop, hard bop, and post-bop.
I also suggested Late Bop on his FB page
First off, Shuja should never have to buy his own coffee/beer/whatever in the presence of a jazz fan again. Bravo! What a gift to have such a thoughtful and informed editor.
Secondly, thanks for such a remarkable behind-the-scenes view, Ethan.
How about 'Strata-Sphere'? If Interstellar was the rocket launch, the landing must have been close to Strata-East. Everything around it could be considered part of its sphere of influence -- hence the Strata-Sphere. Plus it's spacey-sounding which seems important for some reason...
I don't know which I like better: the Nation article or the piece ABOUT the Nation article. Either way, taken together, they make an extraordinary and important narrative of a slice of jazz history. I could argue about stuff that's left out or unaccounted for: the whole post-Chicago, post-AACM scene. I do remember after the advent of Wynton Marsalis being gobsmacked by how he and the Young Lions cleared everything else off the table. In the '80s and up through the early '90s, David Murray was the Man. He was the future. Especially in his octet work with Butch Morris. he seemed to be showing a new way forward. And the Italian Black Saint label was the '80s equivalent of Blue Note in the '50s-'early '60s -- it was people like Murray and his cohort in the World Saxophone Quartet, Oliver Lake, Julius Hemphill, Hamiet Bluiett, who were the pace setters The WSQ in particular was popular. People like Arthur Blythe got a deal with Columbia. And Arista was doing cool stuff as well -- Henry Threadgill and Air, Anthony Braxton, Steve Lacy. One veteran musician from the time said about Wynton: "This is the first time I've heard the music go backward." But when I think of exciting shows I've seen recently, Immanuel Wlkins, Joel Ross, and Marquis Hill seem like the closest analogues to the Slugs' gang, even if the music is significantly different. And then there's Kris Davis and her whole Pyroclastic scene. And the Bad Plus, which seemed (and still seems) sui generis. All of which is to say: You couldn't cover EVERYTHING! That would take a jazz version of "The Golden Bough" or Mr. Causabin's "Key to All Mythologies." But, you know, in your spare time!
The Beethoven observation explains it well.
Whatever it’s called, thanks for an excellent article highlighting an important and somewhat overlooked period of the music.
Since I have been privately calling this music “postbop” for a long time (it carries to me all the connotation of “we took off from 1961-65 Miles and Coltrane, kept swinging and went further out harmonically”- just as, say, post modernism is well seen as an extension and intensification from the trajectory of modernism: and I don’t think it’s too broad as long as you come up with another new name for further trends in non free/fusion jazz by the mid 70s) but found your strongest argument against it yesterday to be “musicians don’t use it,” I had to laugh when you imagined telling Ron Carter a genre name he…definitely does not use.
Cosmic indeed.
Having previously been asked by editors to do exactly what Shuja asked of you - with less reservation about consequences or hands-on back-and-forth regarding options and meaning - I really enjoyed reading this as a process post. Kudos to a good editor!
Also, I really like Late Jazz. Warning: I may steal this (and attribute, of course).
steal away!
Thank you for this invaluable insight into The Process, Ethan. And you’re right: most writers would kill for an editor as perceptive and engaged as Shuja Haider.
no doubt! Thanks Philip
So many musicians throughout jazz history have avoided labels for the music that they play. Ellington said that each person is their own unique entity, or category if you wish.
Perhaps you've already settled this, but subjectively speaking I am not attracted to labeling styles!
As if The Nation article wasn’t enough of a gold mine, now we get this gem of a backstory. What a gift!
As an alternate name, I humbly propose Impressionist Bop. You still get the Coltrane allusion, and a song featuring Tyner to boot, an appropriate nod to bebop, but also a reference to the painting genre that took familiar subjects and presented them in a brand new way, which is how I’ve often thought of this era of jazz. The way Hancock and Shorter played/presented their musical ideas in the mid-60s has always seemed to me (a non-musician) to be more impressionistic than structural. I’d argue that Henderson’s version of Night & Day, the last track on Inner Urge, is a great example of not simply a jazz version of a standard, but presenting a familiar song in a brand new way. Finally, unlike “Late Jazz,” there’s no suggestion of an “end”, which is why I too lean against that term.
I like all the thought and reasoning that went into this.
But Interstellar Hard Bop has way too many syllables! Interstellar Swing would be better, Cosmic Swing even better, maybe. Interstellar Hard Bop reminds me of "technical death metal" - precise to the cognoscenti but to outsiders it's like "what?".
If it can't be post-bop, I'll call it "60's Shit". Jazzers know what that means. Also, nobody plays these tunes now, right? They talk about it but few play it. I was at the Rex once and overheard some guys talking about a chord change in a 60s Shit Wayne tune. I sidled up and asked if they played that sort of stuff, and he said "no we just play standards".
One thing that was coming to mind while I was listening to "Forces" (as well as others from this period like Charles Tolliver's newly issued "Live at the Captain's Cabin" from '73 or Freddie Hubbard's "The Hub of Hubbard" or any live Woody Shaw) is the unrelenting *energy* of it—it's loose in the best way (bordering on sloppy—sometimes the form disappears for a while as you pointed out!). I know "Energy Music" is used to refer to Archie Shepp and others on the free side of things, but maybe this is "Energy Bop"? "Black Power Energy Bop"? In the notes to "Captain's Cabin" Tolliver says "It was a wild period and we played wild."
You have one of the best editors imaginable! Are there books he has edited? If so, what are they?
I might call it “Power Hard Bop”. It’s definitely powerful while also embodying Black Power.
I had Shuja edit the Billy Hart memoir, due to be released in the summer!