Hi Ethan - Thanks for the open thread. It was a great pleasure to hear you, Billy, and Linda breaking in the reopened Regattabar. While I got to say hello to you briefly then, and thank you for calling the chestnut "I'll Be Seeing You," a special favorite of my dad's, with Linda's superb solo intro, I wanted to tell you about something else, too. A few weeks ago, through TT, you introduced me to Charles Ives' "From Hanover Square North, at the End of a Tragic Day, the Voice of the People Again Arose." This rang a bell for me: I happen to work on Hanover Square. I learned that the specific location Ives referred to was the (northbound, presumably) Hanover Square stop on the old 3rd Avenue El, at the intersection of Pearl and Hanover Streets, where he heard New Yorkers of all stripes react to the sinking of the ocean liner Lusitania, in 1915, by joining together in a hymn. With the piece fresh in my ears, I stood on that corner, and felt connected through music and place, across time, to the experience that Ives described. Thank you for that extraordinary moment.
Hi Ethan- all this talk of 8ths leads me onto the fact that many music teachers over the pond in the UK ( where I reside) still teach rhythmic nomenclature ‘old school’ ie Breves, minims, crotchets and qu’avers which have no relevance to what these symbols actually mean. I like to take the hot drink approach with kids and we use Tea 1/4 note, coffee 1/8, chocolate triplet, cappuccino 1/16 which ‘sound’ their meaning. You can also get some crazy hot beverage counterpoint going with them which is i
often hysterical. Get ´em learning the basics without knowing their learning!👍
Hi Ethan: I attended and enjoyed your Regatta Bar set and I hoped to thank you in general for your TT posts, which I find highly informative, and especially for your recent discussions of Charles Ives, which were totally eye-opening for me. I didn’t get a chance to catch you then, so I’ll just say thank you now.
Great q! With Buster and Billy Ialready played Berlin's "The Best Thing for You (Would be Me)" which is great. I might also revisit Kern's "In Love in Vain," which I used to play with Bill McHenry. My impression is that I couldn't quite call either of those at a jam session (but Buster Williams knows them of course)
I’ll have to check out “In Love In Vain”! Always loved Art Farmer’s take on “The Best Thing For You”, featuring the elusive but very great Tommy Williams on bass, who apparently left the jazz scene to start a family
You mentioned that one of your piano teachers helped you to stop holding your breath whilst playing. Can you explain how she taught that? Thanks for all your brilliant articles. I am another of your fans from the UK and have been lucky to hear you play(with TBP) in bath and Bristol but also in Chicago when i visited there. I am also a lawrence block fan and i have found matt scudder’s and your own sobriety inspiring too.
Yes, that was early on with Sophia Rosoff. Basically she had me blow out while playing. Usually, there is no problem breathing in. It is the exhale which can be a problem.
Hi Ethan! I have an incredibly geeky question...I was playing a couple of gigs recently and I noticed on mid-tempo to slow swing a couple of guys playing really straight. It kind of drove me batty because it felt more like double time walking than 8th notes and it did not swing. And I've heard other teachers offer this advice which makes me think I'm missing the boat. I get as the tempo increases the 8th notes would straighten out but this was at 100-130 bpm. A lot of the guys I would listen to would mix triplets with their swung 8th notes at that tempo....or double time too. It might be trying to get younger kids to not overswing (like playing shuffle 8th notes as I think of them) I think but to my ears it sounds wrong. So I guess my question is ....am i wrong? (I'm ok with being wrong----that's how I've stayed married for so long!)
This is an interesting comment, but I don’t have a clear answer. At least in my circles I haven’t noticed a switch in general approach, but I’m not playing with that many young people. However, as I’m sure you know many of the greatest choose to phrase their 8ths fairly straight. Dexter Gordon, and Sonny Clark are two obvious examples.
I’ve always found J H’s Mamacita interesting for its swung 8ths against the Latin groove. Actually, always felt that it sits more comfortably in a medium swing pocket anyways.
Actually at what BPM do swung 8ths become straight/even.
I’m sure you’re aware of the Baroque practice in certain dance movements to turn duple 8ths into ‘swung’ triplets when called for by the conventions of the time.
Yes, it would be so interesting to hear how they actually played back then...even Mozart's phrasing might have been inégale, which makes sense of course
So I'm listening to Softly by Sonny Clark at this moment and this is the tempo I'm talking about. When he plays 8th notes at this tempo I feel like he's swinging them.....maybe I'm hearing it wrong but I feel if I played those phrases exactly straight it would sound different.
Oh great. However I think if you compare Clark to Wynton Kelly you will see that Kelly is more “swung” than Clark. It’s a reasonably subtle thing, of course.
I'll give a listen... it's fun to do this at least. And I'm trying not to go into it with a preferred outcome. Which isn't easy haha. Also Milt Jackson plays straight pretty much and I love his playing. I think it might also have something to do with Articulations, Rhythmic Variety and Asymmetrical phrasing.
I was just Listening to Dexter on Three O clock in the morning and he is pretty straight...but the accents and behind the beat phrasing definitely help to make it swing. Still not totally straight though but a pretty big difference than Wynton Kelly.
I’d welcome your comments, Ethan, on the recent news that music on the Tzadik label has just become available on various streaming services.
I have no love for those who own the services, but I’m happy if more people are able to discover some of the music on the label. The news itself has got me scheming about running a feature or two on Tzadik on my upcoming radio shows.
Tzadik makes an unusually wide range of music available, not just “avant garde” music as it’s typically understood.
It’s an amazing catalog and one that I don’t know very well. For someone like myself, it’s a real boon to be able to peruse all those great releases. However, I wish the metadata was more clear. All of those albums have a lot of context and you can’t see the context when streaming.
Hi Ethan - Thanks for the open thread. It was a great pleasure to hear you, Billy, and Linda breaking in the reopened Regattabar. While I got to say hello to you briefly then, and thank you for calling the chestnut "I'll Be Seeing You," a special favorite of my dad's, with Linda's superb solo intro, I wanted to tell you about something else, too. A few weeks ago, through TT, you introduced me to Charles Ives' "From Hanover Square North, at the End of a Tragic Day, the Voice of the People Again Arose." This rang a bell for me: I happen to work on Hanover Square. I learned that the specific location Ives referred to was the (northbound, presumably) Hanover Square stop on the old 3rd Avenue El, at the intersection of Pearl and Hanover Streets, where he heard New Yorkers of all stripes react to the sinking of the ocean liner Lusitania, in 1915, by joining together in a hymn. With the piece fresh in my ears, I stood on that corner, and felt connected through music and place, across time, to the experience that Ives described. Thank you for that extraordinary moment.
wow!! this is an incredible comment!!!! thank you!
Your 'After the Rain' is both lapidary & somehow huge in its loveliness. I love that little rocking figure in the bass...
aw what a nice comment! thank you!
Hi Ethan- all this talk of 8ths leads me onto the fact that many music teachers over the pond in the UK ( where I reside) still teach rhythmic nomenclature ‘old school’ ie Breves, minims, crotchets and qu’avers which have no relevance to what these symbols actually mean. I like to take the hot drink approach with kids and we use Tea 1/4 note, coffee 1/8, chocolate triplet, cappuccino 1/16 which ‘sound’ their meaning. You can also get some crazy hot beverage counterpoint going with them which is i
often hysterical. Get ´em learning the basics without knowing their learning!👍
that crotchets stuff is about as confusing to this American as Cricket! Like the beverage counterpoint!
Don’t get me started on NFL 🤷🏻♂️and I’m a Rugby fan ( you may have heard that the World Cup is on in France at the mo.
Ethan it is a pleasure to read your writings. Sophia would be thrilled to have known this. You are a special talent. Bill ( Sophia’s doorman).
Oh wow! Hi Bill. I miss Sophia every day!
Hi Ethan: I attended and enjoyed your Regatta Bar set and I hoped to thank you in general for your TT posts, which I find highly informative, and especially for your recent discussions of Charles Ives, which were totally eye-opening for me. I didn’t get a chance to catch you then, so I’ll just say thank you now.
Thanks so much! Amazing
Favorite underplayed standards or jazz tunes these days?
Great q! With Buster and Billy Ialready played Berlin's "The Best Thing for You (Would be Me)" which is great. I might also revisit Kern's "In Love in Vain," which I used to play with Bill McHenry. My impression is that I couldn't quite call either of those at a jam session (but Buster Williams knows them of course)
I’ll have to check out “In Love In Vain”! Always loved Art Farmer’s take on “The Best Thing For You”, featuring the elusive but very great Tommy Williams on bass, who apparently left the jazz scene to start a family
fab. there's some great Ron Carter on the "Best thing for you" with Charles Lloyd
There's an interesting version of "The Best Thing For You(Would Be Me) with Terri Lynn Carrington, Metheny, Gary Thomas, et al from the 90's...
I heard Billy with Gary Peacock in St. Louis in the early 90's...Other worldly...
Appreciate your literary and musical creativity, thank you!
Oh I’m not hip but Gary Thomas is a serious situation!
Here it is (audio) : https://youtu.be/oEZm34EPeW8?feature=shared GT on soprano
Thanks!
You mentioned that one of your piano teachers helped you to stop holding your breath whilst playing. Can you explain how she taught that? Thanks for all your brilliant articles. I am another of your fans from the UK and have been lucky to hear you play(with TBP) in bath and Bristol but also in Chicago when i visited there. I am also a lawrence block fan and i have found matt scudder’s and your own sobriety inspiring too.
Yes, that was early on with Sophia Rosoff. Basically she had me blow out while playing. Usually, there is no problem breathing in. It is the exhale which can be a problem.
Thanks for kind words and long live Matt Scudder!
It looks like you use the word “hillbilly” a couple times to describe Charlie Haden’s playing. Any clues on where you hear that hillbilly edge?
well, Haden sang country music in the Ozarks as a kid. He's two years old in this amazing clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56Q-REwnezc
Later on, maybe the first Ozarks-era quotation is "Ramblin'" from CHANGE OF THE CENTURY
Hi Ethan! I have an incredibly geeky question...I was playing a couple of gigs recently and I noticed on mid-tempo to slow swing a couple of guys playing really straight. It kind of drove me batty because it felt more like double time walking than 8th notes and it did not swing. And I've heard other teachers offer this advice which makes me think I'm missing the boat. I get as the tempo increases the 8th notes would straighten out but this was at 100-130 bpm. A lot of the guys I would listen to would mix triplets with their swung 8th notes at that tempo....or double time too. It might be trying to get younger kids to not overswing (like playing shuffle 8th notes as I think of them) I think but to my ears it sounds wrong. So I guess my question is ....am i wrong? (I'm ok with being wrong----that's how I've stayed married for so long!)
This is an interesting comment, but I don’t have a clear answer. At least in my circles I haven’t noticed a switch in general approach, but I’m not playing with that many young people. However, as I’m sure you know many of the greatest choose to phrase their 8ths fairly straight. Dexter Gordon, and Sonny Clark are two obvious examples.
I’ve always found J H’s Mamacita interesting for its swung 8ths against the Latin groove. Actually, always felt that it sits more comfortably in a medium swing pocket anyways.
Actually at what BPM do swung 8ths become straight/even.
I’m sure you’re aware of the Baroque practice in certain dance movements to turn duple 8ths into ‘swung’ triplets when called for by the conventions of the time.
Yes, it would be so interesting to hear how they actually played back then...even Mozart's phrasing might have been inégale, which makes sense of course
So I'm listening to Softly by Sonny Clark at this moment and this is the tempo I'm talking about. When he plays 8th notes at this tempo I feel like he's swinging them.....maybe I'm hearing it wrong but I feel if I played those phrases exactly straight it would sound different.
Oh great. However I think if you compare Clark to Wynton Kelly you will see that Kelly is more “swung” than Clark. It’s a reasonably subtle thing, of course.
I'll give a listen... it's fun to do this at least. And I'm trying not to go into it with a preferred outcome. Which isn't easy haha. Also Milt Jackson plays straight pretty much and I love his playing. I think it might also have something to do with Articulations, Rhythmic Variety and Asymmetrical phrasing.
your comments seem on point. Articulations, Rhythmic Variety and Asymmetrical phrasing -- and Accents!
I was just Listening to Dexter on Three O clock in the morning and he is pretty straight...but the accents and behind the beat phrasing definitely help to make it swing. Still not totally straight though but a pretty big difference than Wynton Kelly.
I’d welcome your comments, Ethan, on the recent news that music on the Tzadik label has just become available on various streaming services.
I have no love for those who own the services, but I’m happy if more people are able to discover some of the music on the label. The news itself has got me scheming about running a feature or two on Tzadik on my upcoming radio shows.
Tzadik makes an unusually wide range of music available, not just “avant garde” music as it’s typically understood.
It’s an amazing catalog and one that I don’t know very well. For someone like myself, it’s a real boon to be able to peruse all those great releases. However, I wish the metadata was more clear. All of those albums have a lot of context and you can’t see the context when streaming.
You’re so right. It’s frustrating, particularly (as you point out) because of the fascinating context of those releases…