Last night I thought of another cool version of "Cherokee," by Branford Marsalis with Reginald Veal and Jeff "Tain" Watts on THE DARK KEYS, from 1996. Certainly a unique take in terms of what Branford is playing on the saxophone. The track is "Schott Happens."
You’ve inspired me to respond, which will take me a while. Thanks for that. I remember how interested Stanley was in your take on things, and also the good things you’ve written about him in the past.
Just two comments: Wynton created Juilliard Jazz in 2001. Immanuel and Micah are Juilliard grads. I’ve been teaching jazz history there since the beginning, except for a handful of years off in the middle.
Not sure if you meant your comment “Grammys are not always a reliable indicator of what is actually happening musically or not” to be as ironically funny as it seems.
Just listened to the new JALC Orchestra release ("We the People"). It's funny how every time the band members get to write for the band, all of their music sounds exactly like Wynton's. Peer pressure? Company policy?
Thank you for the wonderful posts, Mr. Iverson! W/r/t what you said about new ways of dealing with standard forms - musicians in Pittsburgh are currently making progress in these areas.
There is a strong traditional grounding in Pittsburgh; two of the key elders here are drummer Roger Humphries and bassist Dwayne Dolphin. We all have come up under them (myself included), so the level of playing in Pittsburgh punches above its weight. All young players in Pittsburgh are expected to swing the standard repertoire with a sincere and authentic voice. Dwayne toured with Wynton for a period in the early/mid 80s, then later worked extensively with Geri Allen (you can hear him with her on her album "Maroons"). Dwayne's experiences yield a unique perspective, blending the values of the young lions with the open-ness and creativity he learned from Geri. Serious musicians here don't see tradition and innovation/experimentation as an "either/or" issue.
A multi-generational group of players (early 20s thru mid 80s) has developed in the past few years that is developing new approaches. One fun thing about it is that the older players are just as likely to make innovative contributions as the youngsters; it isn't just a set of young firebrands trying to shake things up. Everyone is developing together.
I'm fortunate to get to be a part of this group of players, so obviously I'm biased in my assessments of what is going on here. But the music feels vibrant and fresh and it seems like new developments happen by the week here. I don't think that even 1% of the basic possibilities in the jazz tradition have been discovered yet.
The future of jazz? Will the traditions prevail? The next significant innovator? Going back a certain style of jazz was epitomized for me by Jelly Roll Morton, late 1920's, banjo big then. Today "real" trad jazz has a banjo player, much like real baroque music has a harpsichord. A dilemma for the jazz world is that the first century of the music is becoming cannonized, much like the classical music world has been for long time, a situation brought about by the abiding interest in stylistic innovations and the formalization of jazz study. This is not necessarily a problem, fifty years from now there may period correct performances of the jazz masters now worshipped by many. A natural evolution? But! Jazz has always been a music of disruption, and Ethan, you get around alot in the current scene and I read your blog partly looking for clues!
You knew Stanley Crouch. He produced the "The State of the Tenor" live Joe Henderson album. I have been listening to these recordings lately and think they could have been called "The State of the Bass" for Ron Carter's work. A few years later Charlie Haden's Montreal tapes featured Henderson and Foster. An interesting contrast!
A prime example of the direct bass in phenomenon to my ears, can be found on the Mosaic set, The Complete Bee Hive Sessions. Late 70's pickups had improved and seems like everbody was using them.
I was in Stockholm in 2004 and I saw Trio Töykeät, who were excellent. I can't find anything to disagree with in this, EXCEPT for the unspoken dictum that "innovative" is best.
Imagination without taste is to be feared, not welcomed. I think Wynton would agree with this wholeheartedly. Yesterday the shuffle feature on my music player brought up "Autumn Leaves" with Chick Corea and Bobby McFerrin. This is a good example of imagination and voice, without any taste.
From what I remember about Wynton Marsalis, hasn't he won Grammys for his classical works? He cannot be pigeonholed as many of you are trying to do. It does a disservice to his unique accomplishments as a complete artist. To me he is the greatest trumpeter in the world today, right up there with Dizzy Gillespie and Quincy Jones. He may not be a composer of note like the other two, but he is a peerless interpreter and historian, and his value is immeasurable, beyond the limited scope of most fans' understanding.
I appreciate your sentiment, but only want to slow your roll in terms of discussing Grammys. Grammys are not always a reliable indicator of what is actually happening musically or not.
Funnily enough, it was when I watched the David Simon series "Treme," about post-Katrina New Orleans, that I figured out something about Wynton's sudden change from the Tain era to the Herlin Riley era—not so much the reason for the change but Wynton's message after it.
It wasn't the somewhat lame story line about the young NOLA trumpeter who found fame in NYC before reincorporating his roots, but rather just the depiction of the music scene in New Orleans: the sound of it, but especially the intense local pride, which can seem like relentless, chauvinistic boosterism. I recognized the core of Wynton's attitude about "the tradition." I think that attitude—boastful, challenging, proud, a little bit arrogant—is as much a part of his heritage as the second-line rhythm.
I am withholding judgment on your comment in re: Wynton, but I do think TREME is fascinating because, as great as Simon is, he has trouble with understanding the music from the outside. In THE WIRE Simon is appropriating the tropes and the truths in a smooth manner. But a working trombonist in New Orleans for TREME defeats all his vast cunning. Proof, once again, that jazz and black music is truly impenetrable to outsiders
Yes, Simon's take on jazz might work very well for a viewer unfamiliar with the music, but even for well-informed civilians like me it's obvious he doesn't really know much about it. But the series is great on many other scores, including all the cameos.
Now that I've blurted out my long post introducing myself less than an hour ago (that was my first ever post anywhere on any site), let's get down to brass tacks.
All my exposure to the world of jazz has been through my friends suggesting tunes for me to listen to. For example, when I was 21 I heard Chick Corea's 500 Miles High and Spain when it was originally released. It was a mind-blowing experience to say the least. I transcribed both songs and taught them to my friends. Then someone exposed me to Charlie Parker's music, and I became an instant fan, enough so that I learned most of his tunes (and I'm a keyboardist!). Then my whole life turned around when I went to see Jimmy Smith live at his supper club in L.A. From that moment on I went to the woodshed and practiced learning how to play keyboard bass, vowing to learn how to swing just as he did. Mission accomplished!
I know that my experiences have little to do with this particular article because of the critiques of musicians that I've barely listened to. All I can say is that no matter who a person's favourite is, they're all great players regardless of their approach. Every artist brings something to the table, whether world renowned or not. I have little time or patience for jazz police. I guess that if you're a true jazz fan like my friend who turned me on to this site, that's different, and then this site is a great place to share opinions. My posts in the future, however, will be about different experiences along the way, having learned to play jazz music one tune at a time over a course of 50 years of playing steadily, which I still do today. Then I will start sharing some of my favourite tunes and artists and what made them special to my ears.
At a younger age I could play "Cherokee" at real tempo while playing the bass lines in my left hand. Nowadays I have to cut back about 25%, but that's not what's important.
From this article it seems to me that Europeans have more respect for artists of any genre (more than just jazz). Japan is also a huge hotbed of American jazz, which is not even mentioned. Before I continue, I am not an audiophile or a record collector or even a listener. I listen to jazz music for only one purpose, and that is to learn how to play my favourite tunes. I started out as a rock guitar player for 10 years playing radio hits while transferring that energy to the keyboards, solos and all, until I developed my keyboard bass skills playing jazz blues first, and then graduating to be able to play any style of traditional and '70's jazz.
As far as I can see it, with the advent of rap and hip hop dominating the scene since the early '90's, most of today's rap artists have abandoned traditional jazz for the new "21st Century" jazz, a derivative takeoff on the beatnik movement of the late '50's set to digital technology dominated by the funky beats of the past. The creative improvisation is in the words, not the music. The rap phrasing has influenced just about every pop singer since. The genre has become a springboard to acting, fashion, and other commercial activities that create a brand name for the artists to such an extent where eventually the music starts to not even matter anymore. Eventually their brand becomes more important than their music.
Most of the article is way out of my league when it comes to jazz appreciation. The Internet has somehow turned the pursuit of artistic idealism into "white noise", where everyone is heard, but no one stands out. There's too many artists out there clamouring to be noticed. And streaming services like Spotify take advantage of that desperation, paying a crumb of royalty for the chance of any original music being given exposure to the general public. It is a jungle out there, and we are the unwitting prey!
In essence, I think the "American exceptionalism" is tantamount to our jazz artists circling the wagons, trying to assert their legacy and importance in a world that has passed them by. The Internet has turned the jazz world into a "global village", borrowing from every imaginable genre on the planet (similar to what the Beatles exposed the rock world to after their trips to India, bringing the sitar into the mainstream). That's how jazz is supposed to grow and continue its relevance. But we must never forget to water the tree of jazz music so it reaches all the way down to its roots, always paying homage to its original creators, but moving on from there as its branches and leaves stretch out to the rays of the sun. If treated that way, jazz will never die; it continues to evolve past our understanding of what is considered jazz.
Wonderful series of posts! To me, Jean-Michel Pilc falls within several of the overlapping circles of this discussion. Distinctive voice in the "knows his Messiaen/Ligeti" mold, plays lots of standards, usually with a swinging 8th. I've felt for some time he should be much better known than he is.
Ethan, I only know Taurus Mateen's playing from Moran's Bandwagon record. I dig the music but find Mateen's light, buzzing bass sound to be annoying. Your thoughts, please.
Regarding Bass pickups, often there was an impedance mismatch, and that will get you a tinny nasal sound. To this day I'm constantly advising fellow bassists on how to use them dreaded pickups. The early 70s is also when steel strings started to overtake gut strings - changing the instrument dramatically. The first two Jazz guys to seriously get into steel strings were Ray Brown and Red Mitchell.
P.S. sent you an e-mail re: Mingus - not fishing for a response, just wanna know if you got it, because I used an old e-mail address of yours.
another thing Stanley was wrong about, lol. Was that MY gig? I don't think Buster played Smalls much, but I was there once for two nights with Buster and Ben Riley (the last time they played together).
I think it was! I was fuzzy on the details thinking back on it, but now that you mention it I'm sure it must've been one of those nights. I had no idea it was the last time they played together.
Very wide-ranging, whipsawing! essays I learned from...and somehow sent me to one, possibly not well-known attempt, to assess (early) Wynton from the avant-garde tradition: Nate Wooley's (Dance to) The Early Music on Clean Feed, 2015, in which Nate plays and reinterprets pieces from Black Codes, J Mood, etc., with respect. A good review here:
Last night I thought of another cool version of "Cherokee," by Branford Marsalis with Reginald Veal and Jeff "Tain" Watts on THE DARK KEYS, from 1996. Certainly a unique take in terms of what Branford is playing on the saxophone. The track is "Schott Happens."
it's in B (not B-flat) among other things
Lots of food for thought here.
You’ve inspired me to respond, which will take me a while. Thanks for that. I remember how interested Stanley was in your take on things, and also the good things you’ve written about him in the past.
Just two comments: Wynton created Juilliard Jazz in 2001. Immanuel and Micah are Juilliard grads. I’ve been teaching jazz history there since the beginning, except for a handful of years off in the middle.
Not sure if you meant your comment “Grammys are not always a reliable indicator of what is actually happening musically or not” to be as ironically funny as it seems.
thanks Loren!
Just listened to the new JALC Orchestra release ("We the People"). It's funny how every time the band members get to write for the band, all of their music sounds exactly like Wynton's. Peer pressure? Company policy?
I’m not up on everything, but your comment checks out from what I’ve heard
Thank you for the wonderful posts, Mr. Iverson! W/r/t what you said about new ways of dealing with standard forms - musicians in Pittsburgh are currently making progress in these areas.
There is a strong traditional grounding in Pittsburgh; two of the key elders here are drummer Roger Humphries and bassist Dwayne Dolphin. We all have come up under them (myself included), so the level of playing in Pittsburgh punches above its weight. All young players in Pittsburgh are expected to swing the standard repertoire with a sincere and authentic voice. Dwayne toured with Wynton for a period in the early/mid 80s, then later worked extensively with Geri Allen (you can hear him with her on her album "Maroons"). Dwayne's experiences yield a unique perspective, blending the values of the young lions with the open-ness and creativity he learned from Geri. Serious musicians here don't see tradition and innovation/experimentation as an "either/or" issue.
A multi-generational group of players (early 20s thru mid 80s) has developed in the past few years that is developing new approaches. One fun thing about it is that the older players are just as likely to make innovative contributions as the youngsters; it isn't just a set of young firebrands trying to shake things up. Everyone is developing together.
I'm fortunate to get to be a part of this group of players, so obviously I'm biased in my assessments of what is going on here. But the music feels vibrant and fresh and it seems like new developments happen by the week here. I don't think that even 1% of the basic possibilities in the jazz tradition have been discovered yet.
The future of jazz? Will the traditions prevail? The next significant innovator? Going back a certain style of jazz was epitomized for me by Jelly Roll Morton, late 1920's, banjo big then. Today "real" trad jazz has a banjo player, much like real baroque music has a harpsichord. A dilemma for the jazz world is that the first century of the music is becoming cannonized, much like the classical music world has been for long time, a situation brought about by the abiding interest in stylistic innovations and the formalization of jazz study. This is not necessarily a problem, fifty years from now there may period correct performances of the jazz masters now worshipped by many. A natural evolution? But! Jazz has always been a music of disruption, and Ethan, you get around alot in the current scene and I read your blog partly looking for clues!
You knew Stanley Crouch. He produced the "The State of the Tenor" live Joe Henderson album. I have been listening to these recordings lately and think they could have been called "The State of the Bass" for Ron Carter's work. A few years later Charlie Haden's Montreal tapes featured Henderson and Foster. An interesting contrast!
A prime example of the direct bass in phenomenon to my ears, can be found on the Mosaic set, The Complete Bee Hive Sessions. Late 70's pickups had improved and seems like everbody was using them.
I was in Stockholm in 2004 and I saw Trio Töykeät, who were excellent. I can't find anything to disagree with in this, EXCEPT for the unspoken dictum that "innovative" is best.
Imagination without taste is to be feared, not welcomed. I think Wynton would agree with this wholeheartedly. Yesterday the shuffle feature on my music player brought up "Autumn Leaves" with Chick Corea and Bobby McFerrin. This is a good example of imagination and voice, without any taste.
From what I remember about Wynton Marsalis, hasn't he won Grammys for his classical works? He cannot be pigeonholed as many of you are trying to do. It does a disservice to his unique accomplishments as a complete artist. To me he is the greatest trumpeter in the world today, right up there with Dizzy Gillespie and Quincy Jones. He may not be a composer of note like the other two, but he is a peerless interpreter and historian, and his value is immeasurable, beyond the limited scope of most fans' understanding.
I appreciate your sentiment, but only want to slow your roll in terms of discussing Grammys. Grammys are not always a reliable indicator of what is actually happening musically or not.
Funnily enough, it was when I watched the David Simon series "Treme," about post-Katrina New Orleans, that I figured out something about Wynton's sudden change from the Tain era to the Herlin Riley era—not so much the reason for the change but Wynton's message after it.
It wasn't the somewhat lame story line about the young NOLA trumpeter who found fame in NYC before reincorporating his roots, but rather just the depiction of the music scene in New Orleans: the sound of it, but especially the intense local pride, which can seem like relentless, chauvinistic boosterism. I recognized the core of Wynton's attitude about "the tradition." I think that attitude—boastful, challenging, proud, a little bit arrogant—is as much a part of his heritage as the second-line rhythm.
I am withholding judgment on your comment in re: Wynton, but I do think TREME is fascinating because, as great as Simon is, he has trouble with understanding the music from the outside. In THE WIRE Simon is appropriating the tropes and the truths in a smooth manner. But a working trombonist in New Orleans for TREME defeats all his vast cunning. Proof, once again, that jazz and black music is truly impenetrable to outsiders
Yes, Simon's take on jazz might work very well for a viewer unfamiliar with the music, but even for well-informed civilians like me it's obvious he doesn't really know much about it. But the series is great on many other scores, including all the cameos.
Now that I've blurted out my long post introducing myself less than an hour ago (that was my first ever post anywhere on any site), let's get down to brass tacks.
All my exposure to the world of jazz has been through my friends suggesting tunes for me to listen to. For example, when I was 21 I heard Chick Corea's 500 Miles High and Spain when it was originally released. It was a mind-blowing experience to say the least. I transcribed both songs and taught them to my friends. Then someone exposed me to Charlie Parker's music, and I became an instant fan, enough so that I learned most of his tunes (and I'm a keyboardist!). Then my whole life turned around when I went to see Jimmy Smith live at his supper club in L.A. From that moment on I went to the woodshed and practiced learning how to play keyboard bass, vowing to learn how to swing just as he did. Mission accomplished!
I know that my experiences have little to do with this particular article because of the critiques of musicians that I've barely listened to. All I can say is that no matter who a person's favourite is, they're all great players regardless of their approach. Every artist brings something to the table, whether world renowned or not. I have little time or patience for jazz police. I guess that if you're a true jazz fan like my friend who turned me on to this site, that's different, and then this site is a great place to share opinions. My posts in the future, however, will be about different experiences along the way, having learned to play jazz music one tune at a time over a course of 50 years of playing steadily, which I still do today. Then I will start sharing some of my favourite tunes and artists and what made them special to my ears.
At a younger age I could play "Cherokee" at real tempo while playing the bass lines in my left hand. Nowadays I have to cut back about 25%, but that's not what's important.
From this article it seems to me that Europeans have more respect for artists of any genre (more than just jazz). Japan is also a huge hotbed of American jazz, which is not even mentioned. Before I continue, I am not an audiophile or a record collector or even a listener. I listen to jazz music for only one purpose, and that is to learn how to play my favourite tunes. I started out as a rock guitar player for 10 years playing radio hits while transferring that energy to the keyboards, solos and all, until I developed my keyboard bass skills playing jazz blues first, and then graduating to be able to play any style of traditional and '70's jazz.
As far as I can see it, with the advent of rap and hip hop dominating the scene since the early '90's, most of today's rap artists have abandoned traditional jazz for the new "21st Century" jazz, a derivative takeoff on the beatnik movement of the late '50's set to digital technology dominated by the funky beats of the past. The creative improvisation is in the words, not the music. The rap phrasing has influenced just about every pop singer since. The genre has become a springboard to acting, fashion, and other commercial activities that create a brand name for the artists to such an extent where eventually the music starts to not even matter anymore. Eventually their brand becomes more important than their music.
Most of the article is way out of my league when it comes to jazz appreciation. The Internet has somehow turned the pursuit of artistic idealism into "white noise", where everyone is heard, but no one stands out. There's too many artists out there clamouring to be noticed. And streaming services like Spotify take advantage of that desperation, paying a crumb of royalty for the chance of any original music being given exposure to the general public. It is a jungle out there, and we are the unwitting prey!
In essence, I think the "American exceptionalism" is tantamount to our jazz artists circling the wagons, trying to assert their legacy and importance in a world that has passed them by. The Internet has turned the jazz world into a "global village", borrowing from every imaginable genre on the planet (similar to what the Beatles exposed the rock world to after their trips to India, bringing the sitar into the mainstream). That's how jazz is supposed to grow and continue its relevance. But we must never forget to water the tree of jazz music so it reaches all the way down to its roots, always paying homage to its original creators, but moving on from there as its branches and leaves stretch out to the rays of the sun. If treated that way, jazz will never die; it continues to evolve past our understanding of what is considered jazz.
Wonderful series of posts! To me, Jean-Michel Pilc falls within several of the overlapping circles of this discussion. Distinctive voice in the "knows his Messiaen/Ligeti" mold, plays lots of standards, usually with a swinging 8th. I've felt for some time he should be much better known than he is.
Thanks Eric!
Ethan, I only know Taurus Mateen's playing from Moran's Bandwagon record. I dig the music but find Mateen's light, buzzing bass sound to be annoying. Your thoughts, please.
Oh I’m a big fan of Tarus. But I admit that I have mostly seen that great group live many times; I don’t know the records so well.
The Bandwagon album was recorded at the Vanguard.
I'm hoping the Marcus Gilmore / Emmanuel Michael sound becomes a foundation for the next thing: https://marcusgilmore.bandcamp.com/album/journey-to-the-new-live-at-the-village-vanguard
Regarding Bass pickups, often there was an impedance mismatch, and that will get you a tinny nasal sound. To this day I'm constantly advising fellow bassists on how to use them dreaded pickups. The early 70s is also when steel strings started to overtake gut strings - changing the instrument dramatically. The first two Jazz guys to seriously get into steel strings were Ray Brown and Red Mitchell.
P.S. sent you an e-mail re: Mingus - not fishing for a response, just wanna know if you got it, because I used an old e-mail address of yours.
I don't think I saw the email. That's interesting about the pickups.
This brought back a memory of seeing Stanley Crouch at the bar at Smalls, very audibly grumbling about the sound of Buster Williams's bass pickup.
another thing Stanley was wrong about, lol. Was that MY gig? I don't think Buster played Smalls much, but I was there once for two nights with Buster and Ben Riley (the last time they played together).
I think it was! I was fuzzy on the details thinking back on it, but now that you mention it I'm sure it must've been one of those nights. I had no idea it was the last time they played together.
I learned a lot on that gig, in fact I talk about those lessons with my NEC students at least once a semester, it is one of my "teaching stories."
Very wide-ranging, whipsawing! essays I learned from...and somehow sent me to one, possibly not well-known attempt, to assess (early) Wynton from the avant-garde tradition: Nate Wooley's (Dance to) The Early Music on Clean Feed, 2015, in which Nate plays and reinterprets pieces from Black Codes, J Mood, etc., with respect. A good review here:
https://www.freejazzblog.org/2016/01/nate-wooley-quintet-dance-to-early.html
Great record!!