Some time around the year 2000 I co-taught a college class on Jazz and American Culture. I am not a musician so tried to deal with the social and historical aspects of the music. The other teacher was on the music faculty and did the heavy lifting. I am now retired, but if I were to teach a similar class now this interview would be the core. Bravo, Ethan!
The knozz moe king exchange is one of the most profound insights I’ve seen in print of Wynton. Because, he clearly had such an overreaching vision and desire for control of the interaction in that group BUT Tain did “something else” which made the “art” “better”… so perhaps he wasn’t listening enough that night, but nevertheless the rub between the individuals is what makes Jazz so magic.
Thanks for these timely posts which read so differently to me than when I first read them long ago.
The contrasting timbre of Crouch and Wynton, especially.
Crouch remains highly articulate and interesting, but feels intentionally incendiary and provocative and carelessly ad hoc coming out of a Bill Buckley, Gore Vidal, Norman Mailer thing which in 2026 really just reads like a very high form of alpha trolling. In a sad way, he fits right into our miserable current public discourse.
Wynton here is so into the details and difficulties of it all and so generous and so deep into the decision made in the making of a big, ambitious work. So interesting for playwrights and composers and choreographers to study and think about how a person actually trys to do this. Its such hard work! Imagine if some on had done this with Duke, or Charles Ives or with Beckett (neither of whom would have answered these questions in a million years!)
That was an amazing journey. For me as a truly amateur jazz enthusiast it was illuminating. I was also at the Joynt in Eau Claire that night Wynton's band played there.
This is such a joy to read. I appreciate learning how Wynton composes and arranges. Your interactions sound so honest. There was a time when his music was ubiquitous, with multiple releases every year. I go back every once in a while and listen to his recordings from the late 80s––early 90s; there is some fine playing andmusic there. Thanks, Ethan!
I was lucky to hear Roscoe in LA at the Broad Museum in 2019 and Braxton a few weeks later. The Broad had an exhibit on the Black Power Movement of the 60s, and they scheduled the concerts to go along with the exhibit.
On the J@LC succession, in the early days of that organization it really had four or five leaders. Wynton as force of nature, but not really knowledgeable about big band literature or many of the mechanics. Crouch as elder statesman. Somebody like Robert Sabin to run the orchestra and book guest artists. Somebody heavy, heavy to help them be serious about fundraising, I think Beverly Sills in the early days. For 20 years Wynton has been doing all of that. I think it might usefully be disaggregated again. Wynton has said he'll stick around as Founder. That's the Crouch role. His best friends should remind him he's promised not to be a back-seat driver. Then it could look like Cecile McLorin Salvant, or somebody comparably incandescent, as Artistic Director; somebody from the orchestra as JLCO Director; and so on. It's a campus. Any campus has a leadership team. I'm conscious of squatting in your comment board and droning on, I won't do too much of that.
I had a long telephone conversation with Wynton once, and he had no real sense of who the hell I was, just some guy he'd given his phone number to who wanted to talk. After an hour or so I said, "I don't want to take up too much of your time," and he said, "I'm just glad to be asked about the music. It's so rare for people to ask me about the music." We kept talking for most of another hour. This was a guy who, at that point, had been cast in this cartoonish bullshit for 20 years, largely by people who were theoretically music writers. So I definitely noticed when he expressed similar sentiments in your interview, which I felt at the time was one of the two or three best he's ever given. And the thing is, he was always willing to talk. It was just a matter of finding somebody who cared enough to ask.
Reading this again, this conversation is just as invigorating as I remember.
"Time Changes" makes me think of Wynton's record, The Magic Hour, which I always felt was a sort of underrated record. Maybe it's because he came to my college and played that stuff my freshman year, but a worthwhile listen, nonetheless!
Honesty, generosity, and a belief in the possibility of growth animate both your questions and Wynton’s answers. This is a profound piece for me— past time indeed! Thanks Ethan!
Some time around the year 2000 I co-taught a college class on Jazz and American Culture. I am not a musician so tried to deal with the social and historical aspects of the music. The other teacher was on the music faculty and did the heavy lifting. I am now retired, but if I were to teach a similar class now this interview would be the core. Bravo, Ethan!
Beautiful, just beautiful Ethan!
The knozz moe king exchange is one of the most profound insights I’ve seen in print of Wynton. Because, he clearly had such an overreaching vision and desire for control of the interaction in that group BUT Tain did “something else” which made the “art” “better”… so perhaps he wasn’t listening enough that night, but nevertheless the rub between the individuals is what makes Jazz so magic.
yes, great comment, we see this in the same way...
There’s no other domain of music that allows the individual this amount of freedom within the ensemble
Thanks for these timely posts which read so differently to me than when I first read them long ago.
The contrasting timbre of Crouch and Wynton, especially.
Crouch remains highly articulate and interesting, but feels intentionally incendiary and provocative and carelessly ad hoc coming out of a Bill Buckley, Gore Vidal, Norman Mailer thing which in 2026 really just reads like a very high form of alpha trolling. In a sad way, he fits right into our miserable current public discourse.
Wynton here is so into the details and difficulties of it all and so generous and so deep into the decision made in the making of a big, ambitious work. So interesting for playwrights and composers and choreographers to study and think about how a person actually trys to do this. Its such hard work! Imagine if some on had done this with Duke, or Charles Ives or with Beckett (neither of whom would have answered these questions in a million years!)
Thanks for resharing
That was an amazing journey. For me as a truly amateur jazz enthusiast it was illuminating. I was also at the Joynt in Eau Claire that night Wynton's band played there.
This is such a joy to read. I appreciate learning how Wynton composes and arranges. Your interactions sound so honest. There was a time when his music was ubiquitous, with multiple releases every year. I go back every once in a while and listen to his recordings from the late 80s––early 90s; there is some fine playing andmusic there. Thanks, Ethan!
Thanks Richard!
Thank you for your posts this week. This one makes me want to listen to that great saxophone quartet version of “Nonaah” today.
Yeah, that’s a great track
I was lucky to hear Roscoe in LA at the Broad Museum in 2019 and Braxton a few weeks later. The Broad had an exhibit on the Black Power Movement of the 60s, and they scheduled the concerts to go along with the exhibit.
I’m might be wrong about this but I feel like the last 30 years or so of large(r) group Jazz is overdue for critical reappraisal
That’s a great idea for sure
Thanks for putting so much meat on the bones and sharing the feast! And after reading/listening I feel better too!
! that’s what we like to hear!
On the J@LC succession, in the early days of that organization it really had four or five leaders. Wynton as force of nature, but not really knowledgeable about big band literature or many of the mechanics. Crouch as elder statesman. Somebody like Robert Sabin to run the orchestra and book guest artists. Somebody heavy, heavy to help them be serious about fundraising, I think Beverly Sills in the early days. For 20 years Wynton has been doing all of that. I think it might usefully be disaggregated again. Wynton has said he'll stick around as Founder. That's the Crouch role. His best friends should remind him he's promised not to be a back-seat driver. Then it could look like Cecile McLorin Salvant, or somebody comparably incandescent, as Artistic Director; somebody from the orchestra as JLCO Director; and so on. It's a campus. Any campus has a leadership team. I'm conscious of squatting in your comment board and droning on, I won't do too much of that.
You are welcome here anytime, Paul!
I had a long telephone conversation with Wynton once, and he had no real sense of who the hell I was, just some guy he'd given his phone number to who wanted to talk. After an hour or so I said, "I don't want to take up too much of your time," and he said, "I'm just glad to be asked about the music. It's so rare for people to ask me about the music." We kept talking for most of another hour. This was a guy who, at that point, had been cast in this cartoonish bullshit for 20 years, largely by people who were theoretically music writers. So I definitely noticed when he expressed similar sentiments in your interview, which I felt at the time was one of the two or three best he's ever given. And the thing is, he was always willing to talk. It was just a matter of finding somebody who cared enough to ask.
Dead on
Reading this again, this conversation is just as invigorating as I remember.
"Time Changes" makes me think of Wynton's record, The Magic Hour, which I always felt was a sort of underrated record. Maybe it's because he came to my college and played that stuff my freshman year, but a worthwhile listen, nonetheless!
Good piano playing from Eric Lewis on that one
This is just beyond great, like “My Dinner with Andre” but jazz.
So many great sequences and funny twists! A favorite where I Literally Laughed Out Loud:
EI: Like I was telling you: something snapped; I lost my mind when none of those kids recognized “Carolina Shout.”
WM: Think if you were black!
Haha
Honesty, generosity, and a belief in the possibility of growth animate both your questions and Wynton’s answers. This is a profound piece for me— past time indeed! Thanks Ethan!
haha thanks Vin! Your comments leading up to all this reposting were helpful.
I’ve read/listened to the blindfold test interview many times, one of my all-time favorite conversations about the nuts and bolts of jazz.
very cool! Thanks Mark
This is the motherlode. One thing leapt out: WM had never heard “East Bway Run Down”? Did that surprise you?
mmm. I dunno, that's not a record everyone knows I guess. I'm sure there are things that would stump me that everyone else has heard.
Omg totally, I just think of you guys as human jazz search engines. It’s humanizing!